114 - BFFs, Infertility, and Miracles with Samantha Ray

- A special series: May is for Mamas -

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Show Notes:

Welcome to May is for Mamas where every episode this month is dedicated to all the mamas out there. Today is a special one because I'm having my best friends since ninth grade, who also happens to be my sister-in-law—yes, it's crazy—we ended up marrying brothers on my podcast as my guest. Her name is Samantha Ray, and she is a writer, creator, mother, and my dearest friend, living in Wake Forest, North Carolina, with her husband, John, daughter, Griffin, and their three kitties.

She is a writer in every sense of the word. She writes about slow living, pursuing a whole healthful lifestyle, including relational and emotional health. And she has never been afraid to dig into the deeper grittier issues of life, which is why she's here today. She's also a beautiful songwriter and musician. She's gifted in so many ways. I adore her and she always has this profound belief that there's beauty to be found in the messy, the undone, the less photo-worthy moments of life. And it's always worthwhile to dig for the gold, right where you are. Now, Sam and I have been friends for a long, long time.

Today we are diving into one of the most difficult seasons of our friendship, the season of five years where she was walking through infertility and I had three babies. The tension, the heartache, and the hope that we felt was very real, and we're sharing that today, and Sam specifically sharing her story. And as she does, she's very honest, very real. She gives a lot of great practical advice and a huge dose of hope and healing for anyone walking through infertility.

I'm just so honored to share today's podcast episode with you, because what it feels like for me is a precious gift that I'm giving to you, that you can hear Sam's heart and her story. And it feels like we are sharing this really vulnerable part of our journey together as friends and sisters with you.

For the full episode, hit play above!

BFFs, Infertility ,and Miracles with Samantha Ray

Nancy: Sam, I am so glad you are a guest on the Work & Play Podcast! Welcome.

Sam: Oh my gosh, I'm so glad to be here. You know that I'm a huge Nancy fan in general, and I love the podcast and I’ve basically listened to almost every single episode, which is like kind of nerdy because we live a lot of our lives together, but I hope this just feels like another conversation that we would have in real life. And it is a more sensitive topic and it's a very tender time in our friendship, but ultimately I think it's so good to share it and I think, well, I know we're not the only friends who have gone through something like this before.

Nancy: Yep, I totally agree. I'm just so thankful you agreed to do this and you're willing to do this and I just love your heart so much. Like you have such a heart of gold and I've always thought that about you and love you so much. So it's just such a fun thing to have you here, also like major friendship points for you listening to actually like every episode of the podcast.

Sam: It's really so true though.

Nancy: Like I really don't have, I mean, I have a very small amount of friends who actually listened to every single episode, so it just means so much. I'm so thankful. But before we do dive into what I think is going to just be a really special episode, I want to start off on a lighter note and what you to just give like a brief overview of our relationship from the start until now: how long we've known each other, maybe some fun memories. I don't think brief is possible. You can try to keep it brief, but I don't know to summarize well, I just can't wait to hear this answer. Summarize what you feel like our friendship has been.

Sam: Well, yes, it goes way back, but basically I have this distinct memory of seeing you for the very first time and my feeling I had just joined this church and I saw you and I was like, “Oh my gosh, who is that cool girl with? Like you had like this pixie haircut, a’la Meg Ryan of the nineties. And I'm pretty sure that there were butterfly clips involved in that and that hair style. And I just loved it so much. And you had braces and you just like walked with this air of joy and confidence, which is like 100% Nancy. And I just remember thinking, Oh my gosh, I really want to wear braces now, hashtag influencer in sixth grade. But yeah, so like we started going to the same school when we were in ninth grade and we had lots of the same classes together. I just remember us becoming fast and easy friends. Like we just had a shared love of our planners and we would pass notes to each other that had very extensive doodles on them and a really like dorky sense of humor.

And we could also easily talk about God together, which was really sweet to find a friend like that right at the beginning of high school. And then that year, we also connected with our two other best friends, Heather and Jess, and basically like enter the rest of our entire high school, like into our college years of the four of us pretty much spending all of our time together and having so much nerdy fun together.

We really just didn't care about being cool. We just loved each other and we liked what we liked and we did choir and musical theater together, and we created a little band together, which is really funny to look back on now, but I think that we were pretty good. So yeah, we had lots of sleepovers and we would make up lots of silly dances together, but you and I, we went to other colleges like our first year or so of college, but we actually ended up coming back together and we both went to Appalachian State and we roomed together with our friend Elizabeth. And that was like in the years, leading up to you, marrying Will. And then you married Will, and I graduated from Appalachian and I moved back home and I moved home to this like hunky version of Will and Jess’ younger brother, John, like, so very baffling to me.

Nancy: To all of us.

Sam: Like still. He was just this younger brother figure like that entire time, and then I came home and he was just this Jesus loving man who I totally connected with and was already so comfortable around. So yes, we unintentionally married the brothers of our best friend, Jess.

Nancy: Which is just the best. It's just, the story never gets old, that we were literally best friends since ninth grade. And then we ended up marrying brothers before we ever started having interest in those boys or dating them. Like, it's just the best. It's so great. It is pretty awesome. Well, I love that synopsis and I couldn't agree more.

I think some of my favorite things that you said were that you remember me with butterfly clips in this like short haircut and braces. And I don't know if you remember, but the episode where I interviewed Will he has the exact same, like first impression memory of me when he first saw me or like met me for the first time. And that's kind of tragic that like both of your first memories of me are like that, but you know what? It's okay. I'd love to cut. I feel like I need to dig up like this old photo of myself.

Sam: It exists somewhere.

Nancy: Oh, it absolutely does. And post it so people can see the glory of what that was. But anyway, I totally agree. I just loved hearing all of that because we did. And we went on so many missions trips together. Like, I don't know if I had to guess like at least five? That’s a lot.

Sam: Yeah. And a lot of that was international travel too, which that's just really impactful at that age I think.

Nancy: We did so many pranks on the boys in our youth group, like in the middle of the night. It was great. Yeah. It was just so special. I think one of my favorite memories—and then we'll move on to more important things—is when me and you and Heather and Jess made up a choreographed dance at our prom.

Sam: I literally thought of that.

Nancy: And the greatest thing is that we just went out and did it on the dance floor and we didn't care what anyone else thought at the time, we just did it. And we were so proud of ourselves. And we just had such confidence in ourselves and our friendship I bet so many people made fun of us for that, but like, we didn't care. It was the best.

Sam: It was just great. One hundred percent. I literally thought about bringing that up. And I was like, maybe I shouldn't bring that up. Cause it's like kind of a cringe-y memory, but also like, we definitely, it was like the glory of every early two thousands teen movie. We just like made it absolute real life and performed it at our prom to a Stacie Orrico song. Yes, there's that.

Nancy: Oh Man. So good. Well, yes, that we could go on and I feel like we could have an entire podcast, just the two of us, like on so many different topics in life, like what it's like to marry brothers and marry into the same family and how to go on 10 million missions trips with your best friend and also how to create the most comfortable beds ever, which is something that you and I have, like really honed in on as an art.

Sam: Yes.

Nancy: So many things that are peculiar to our relationship. But yes, today we're going to talk about something that is hard. And it was one of the hardest seasons of our friendship, and that was the five years that you were walking through a season of infertility after you and John got married. And in those same five years, I had three babies and it was just really tough for us and walking through that, but also I really just want to highlight the redemption and the miracle and like the beauty of the Lord in all of it. And I think because we walked through that, it's so much sweeter now. We like treasure what we have now more than we ever would have if we didn't have that. And so, but I just want you to like, share your story, Sam. I want to hear from heart, and I want you to share your story with anybody who might not understand infertility and also those who are walking in it and are having a hard time.

So just start by sharing your story of that season of your life.

Sam: Yeah, so like any story where there's something difficult or tender that's going on, there's a lot of layers to it, but I just wanted to say like, thank you so much for picking like this series, the May is for Mother’s series to have me on and to tell this story because, you know, I looked up the most recent statistic I could find, and it says that one in eight couples today experience infertility. So basically that means if you've been trying for a year or more, that's like, if you think of you and seven of your friends, like one of you is going through that. And also 15% of pregnancies end in miscarriage and pregnancy loss and infertility or loss, it might not be a part of your story, like to whoever's listening, but it's very likely that someone close to you has experienced that or is experiencing one or both of these things and I think our hope in sharing this like pretty vulnerable story is that like, if you are experiencing infertility and especially during like the sensitive time around Mother's Day or just holidays in general, that you just know that you're not alone and you're not invisible. And my hope is that you might hear something in my story that would give you some nugget of encouragement and some glimmer of hope that you can hold onto, and maybe some language that you can use to start expressing how you're feeling or figuring out how you're feeling about things or tools about just how to navigate this season that is hard because you don't know when it's going to end.

And if infertility, isn't a part of your story, I hope this conversation will give you just like practical, helpful tools in navigating how to love somebody in your life who might be going through that. And yeah, we can talk more about that later, but my story, just for reference, I'm 33 and John and I got married when he was 21 and I was 24. And now looking back, that seems like, what the heck we were so young, but I just remember thinking, like, do you remember the game MASH where you would like under each category, write down like where you want to get married, where you want to live, what age you want to ask?

Nancy: Oh yeah, I’m pretty sure we played that game.

Sam: A hundred percent. So I just always remember thinking like my ideal kid age to start having babies is 27. Like, and that would give John and I a little bit of time to just be married and enjoy each other, but also I could be like a little bit younger and just try to have lots of babies. And John and I worked full-time jobs for a few years and it was just us in our apartment, and we took an opportunity to live in Mozambique, Africa for a missionary training school. And so we like sold our car, we quit our jobs, we got rid of our stuff and we just like went for it.

And I was like 26, 27 at the time. And I just had this idealized version of my life that I was just like this amazing wild missionary woman in the African Bush with my husband and we're getting pregnant and having all these wild babies, and I was so excited about that. So we pretty much like when we left for Africa, we just stopped preventing getting pregnant.

And I was like ready to do this, ready to go. And after Africa we traveled to Israel and we served there for four months. And then when we came home, we finally got pregnant. And so I was like, Oh, you know, it had been a year that entire process of trying had been a year, which felt like forever. And you know, you try like to the women out there who have gone through infertility, it's like you try for a few months. And you're like, uh-oh, there's that like statistic in the back of your mind? That's like, if you haven't gotten pregnant within six months, you need to talk to your doctor or you need to go see an infertility specialist and I just like turned off that little recording in my head and was like, Nope, not going to be our story. Don't want to listen to that. It's probably because we're just traveling a bunch and it's like the stress on your body and your emotions to just be like in this mobile lifestyle. And yeah, so we got home, it had been a year we got pregnant and I was like, “Yes, our breakthrough! Jesus, thank you so much.”

I was so happy, so happy. And it was right before Christmas and I mean, John and I were planning like ways that we would tell our family on Christmas morning. I pretty much had like an entire baby registry already filled out, like in the few weeks that we were pregnant and then I started bleeding like a few days before Christmas and we had a miscarriage and I just like, remember this like might be a little TMI, but I just remember sitting on the toilet and miscarrying, it was like so clear that that's what was happening. And I was like, wailing, like not a tender little cry. It was like, I was boo-hooing and John was in front of me and just holding me and crying, and I just felt this like, like we had been waiting at a gate and we were just waiting patiently for this gate to open and it finally opened and we finally started walking through and it just felt like we got 10 steps in and they were like, “Oh no, no, no, no, no, sorry, you got to go back. You got to go back out there and you got to wait outside the gate more.”

And it planted the seed in me that just felt like “God, like what's happening?” And like, I just had this big, like planted the big “why” in my head, like, what's going on? Like, why are you doing this? This hurts so bad. I want to trust you. Like God had been my best friend since I was eight, and I just felt like, what is what's happening?

And so, of course, we tried to look into what might be causing this infertility to be going on. And then what might have caused this miscarriage. We were referred to an infertility specialist and I just like was not ready for that at that time, so we just continued to live our life.

And we kind of settled back into life in North Carolina. I started a business at that time and I just remember thinking, there's this area of my life that I want so badly, but I feel like I don't have any control in it and I'm going to try my best, but here's this business. And this is an area in my life that I know if I work hard and I put in the time, I'm going to be successful and have fun and kind of live that dream out. So I was like, okay, maybe it's just time for that dream and kids are on hold.

And, we came to find out that we were diagnosed with unexplained infertility and you know, it had been a year, we had a miscarriage. Well, the months kept rolling by and then the months turned two years. And after a while—it’s such a roller coaster. When you are trying to conceive, it is an absolute roller coaster because number one, it's happening every month. Like, you are trying to make a baby. And then two weeks later you find out whether you did or not. And when you don't, it feels devastating every time. Even if you're trying to get your hopes up or if you're trying to keep hope alive, like, and really hope that yes, this is going to be the month and you try a million different things. You know, I have tried oils, I've tried tinctures. I've tried putting my legs up after sex. I have tried special diets. I've tried this. I tried that. And after a while, I could just feel that that seed that was planted of like, “God, why did you do that? And what is happening?” Just grow, and like, I felt my emotions just kind of shut off towards Him and I just thought, okay, well, one thing I can control and one thing that's really flourishing in my life that I'm really enjoying is my business. So I am going to just go after that and just see how much I can make that thing soar.

And I think in my heart, my attitude was almost like this little toddler that was like, okay, dad, you're not giving me what I want. So like, whatever, I'm just going to go do what I want now until you're ready to give me the thing that I want. And I started experiencing a lot of anxiety and I started experiencing my first panic attacks and I knew that something was so off.

I knew that spiritually something was off. I knew that in my life, something was off. I knew that I had these really big emotions that I had shut off. And I remember not crying for a lot. And I remember just being like, we can try this month and see what happens and when it didn't happen. I'd be like, all right, whatever. Like, you know, it's kind of like, okay, well, I'm just going to keep being successful at my business.

And I could not keep that up much longer. And the thing, one of the things that I really learned is if you don't give a space in your life for your emotions to just be what they are and to come out and to take the time to process them in healthy ways, they're going to start coming out in physical ways, whether you like it or not, that's just the way that we're built.

And so when it got to the point that I was unable to do my job well anymore, because I was having panic attacks on the job with my clients, I knew that I just had to pull the plug and like cut out everything that was not absolutely necessary and get some counseling and some spiritual healing and deliverance. To get prayer, to start inviting people in this process that felt very alone. It felt very isolating and during this entire time, during these years, my friends are having babies. Like what felt like left and right, every time I logged in to Instagram and scrolled, the first thing I saw was like a baby announcement. And it just felt like, okay, God, what is the process that you have me on? Is there something physically that's wrong? Is there something spiritually that's like hindering this breakthrough in our life? Or do we just, are we just in a waiting season with you? What is happening? I just need to know.

And also during that time, we received a lot of prophetic words about our kids and our family. And when I say prophetic words, like basically what I mean is somebody may have had like, seen something while they were praying or heard something about us while they were praying or worshiping, and they felt like it was something from the Lord for us. So even from the very beginning of our marriage, I remember people like spiritual people that we looked up to in our lives coming and saying, “Wow, I just saw you and John and you had tons of babies around you. And I just feel like you're going to have a big family and lots of kids, and that's going to be part of your legacy." And you know, it's the beginning of marriage. I was like, yes, I receive that. And then it became this thing that I was like, Oh no, what if we got those prophetic words because our weight would be so long.

And that felt like, Oh, I don't want to go on this path. I don't want to go on this road. But those prophetic words became these, these promises that I held onto and leaned back onto and said, okay, God, in these moments that I was fighting for my relationship with God and I was pushing in and I was coming to Him saying, I'm angry, I'm hurt, but I want to spend time with you. Here's what you said. Here's what you have said to us. Even when we were in Israel, we had a stranger in Jerusalem, come up to us and say, “I see you with the baby and the baby's coming soon.”

Like this person that we didn't know. And, and we had been trying for almost a year, and after we miscarried, you know, after we got that word, I just thought, what was that word for? But I just kept hanging on. And we received a lot of prayer and we kept receiving words from people. And, you know, the, the whole process altogether took five years. And I can't say that it was all this like linear path of like we tried and we tried, but we like held out hope and we got the thing we wanted.

It was such a process that the Lord did us, growing us. When I finally felt peace that it was a waiting season that he had us in for a reason. And that there wasn't anything special that I had to do or any way I had to change or anything I had to control, it felt so relieving. And yeah, like 2019, I just felt like the Lord gave me so much peace to kind of scale down the business that I had built and start writing, which is a huge passion of mine, and to just take my life really slow. And I was getting more involved in church and I went to a conference at our church and the speaker, who's a lady at this women's conference that at the very end, she just said, if anyone wants prayer or like a prophetic word over their life, come up to the front. And I waited in this line and I wasn't expecting any particular word about our family. I had already kind of like given that up to the Lord and was just trying to live my life with as much joy and peace and trust in Him as possible, and this lady got to me and instead of praying, like, I see you doing this, or I see you doing that or whatever, the only thing she said, and she kind of shouted it. She just said pregnant, pregnant, pregnant, and she moved on. And I was like, what, what was that? And I just started crying. It was like this huge release of emotions, you know? Cause you're just carrying this burden, in a waiting season, you're carrying a burden and even Proverbs says, hope deferred makes the heart sick. And it was like five years of me feeling like I wasn't myself because my heart was just sick. And my relationship with the Lord felt so, so stretched and almost fractured.

And then a lot of my relationships of my friends felt like there's a lot of tension there too, because I was just going through something that they couldn't relate with or didn't know how to relate with. But yeah, like two months after that women's conference, I tested positive on a pregnancy test, which like, felt like that never happened. And I was like, what? And I didn't want to get my hopes up, but long story short, here at the end, is that we now have a beautiful baby girl, her name's Griffin, she's 11 months old. And she's like our dream fulfilled. She's the child that we had to wait for. And we—no credit to ourselves—gained a lot of gold out of that season of waiting, but it was really painful going through it. But yeah, that's, that's the story of those five years.

Nancy: I just love you, and I'm so thankful you shared every single thing that you shared. And I was so hoping like quietly on the other side of this interview that you were going to share about that lady who, didn't she put her hand on you and like on your womb and just yell like pregnant, like several times?

Sam: Yeah, She did. And you know, I was like kind of like watching her as she came down the line. I'm like, Hm, I wonder what this experience is going to be like. And she was putting her hand on people's heads as she was walking down the line. And when she got to me, she just went straight for my belly and just shouted pregnant, pregnant, pregnant, and that's all that she prayed and that's all that she needed to pray.

Nancy: Just that word, right. Yeah. I remember you coming over to my house and sharing that with me. And I think it was Jess and Heather, we were all sitting here and I think we just all started crying. It was like so remarkable because we were all fighting for you and praying with you and longing for that so much, and just to hear those words along the way, like I know they were just like lifelines for you in that season, but yeah, I think one thing I just want to make sure, because it just, I think it magnifies the miracle, not to say that other ways of getting pregnant are not miraculous because they absolutely are. But you felt very clearly during your season of waiting to not do any infertility treatment. Like you and John went in to get assessed, to see if anything was going on and it was unexplained, but you never went through in vitro or artificial insemination or anything like that. You just very strongly felt like you were to wait. Right?

Sam: Yeah. And of course that was like a big question, and I know that the people listening who are have, or are in that season of infertility and trying to conceive, there are like these big hurdles that you feel like you have to figure out as a couple together, because one of you might feel peace to try something. And the other one might not. And it's like this dance. And really, I was just wondering, Oh, are all those promises that he gave us? Is that gonna come about through adoption? Is that gonna come about through in vitro? Is that going to come about in some other way, or am I actually going to get to carry, physically, my child? And you know, after a certain point, after a few years, you're like, I don't care how this baby gets here. I want to be a mama and I want my babies and whatever that looks like, but we spent a lot of time really seriously praying and seeking out counsel for us, what would be right for us. And we just never felt the peace, which I've just learned over the years that when I feel like it's the Holy spirit giving a green light, I just feel a lot of peace. It might not be the easiest way of going about things, but there's peace there. And that's like my, my go, that's my green light.

And we felt a lot of peace just saying “We're gonna wait, we're gonna wait.” But every so often you have to look at the facts, you know. Six months have gone by, or another Christmas has gone by, or another birthday has gone by and what do we want to do? So I had tried some medication for a couple of months and really felt like something was off with that and so I stopped, but yeah, Griffin, we conceived her naturally.

Nancy: And I think one of the things just as a close friend, watching you guys walk through this, that just stood out to me so big was you listening to the Holy Spirit like you and John saying what is right for us? And, you know, having friends, couples who might be also walking through infertility and choosing to do in vitro, and you were just cheering them on, you know, and it's like, I just think one of the biggest lessons I've learned from your story is to listen to the Holy Spirit and trust His voice. And don't let go of those words that he has for you, and he will give you a peace for you, for what you want as a couple. And it's hard. I think when doctors or other people are maybe doing different things or telling you to do different things.

Sam: Yeah, for sure.

Nancy: And you have to just say, I am going to block out all these other voices and listen to what the Lord wants for us for right now, and be willing to change if he changes that path. But right now, what does He want? And yeah, I just, I think it's beautiful what came out of that because it's truly, you truly can take no credit. You truly can say like, God gave us Griffin.

Sam: Yes.

Nancy: A hundred percent, you know, which is just so, so sweet. During that time of just darkness where you felt like your relationship with God was fractured and friends were fractured, and that was definitely hard for the two of us walking through that season. Just for our listeners, and for me, like, I just love, I would love to ask what were some of the most helpful things that friends did for you during that season?

Sam: Yeah, I think one of the most helpful things was honestly just like making space and sticking around for me to like spew out whatever I was processing or feeling at whatever moment. And it like was not always pretty. I remember going to, like we had a girl's movie night or something where we watched, I think The Wedding Planner. And so all of these girls are like gathering together and we're like wearing our comfy clothes and eating yummy snacks. And one of our friends turned to me and said, "Sam, how are you?” And I just started crying like, like embarrassing crying and just saying, “I'm not doing well. I'm not doing well.” I just couldn't hold it in. And I, and I feel like if you know me in real life, I can be like, kind of reserved sometimes. And, or like, I don't really like confrontation, I just want to have a good time. And so it was very unusual for me to just start crying in the middle of these otherwise really fun get togethers or one-on-one hangouts.

And I think having friends that, that just let me feel those things and like, they may not have the answers. They may not even know how to help me process through those things, but they would just sit there and listen or cry with me or hold me, like that was so healing. And I think sometimes as a friend of somebody who might be going through like pregnancy loss or loss of any kind or infertility, just difficult waiting seasons, it can be really hard to know, like, what do I say? What can I say that could help? Or what can I do that will help? And I think one of the main things is just that you're there. Yeah, like just that you are willing to show up and, and like, grief is uncomfortable. Like in our culture, I think if 2020 was helpful for anything it's that we, as a society became a lot more comfortable with like recognizing that grief is a thing and that we need to process grief and it can be very uncomfortable to feel grief from somebody else or to see a huge emotion in somebody and think, “I don't know what to do with that” and “I don't know how to deal with that,” but honestly, just that act of still coming around. Still reaching out, coming over and just saying, "Oh, what are you doing today? I'm just going to insert myself into your life and just hang out with you.” That was like such tangible love for me at that time, that felt like kind of dark and kind of lonely. And I think it's helpful to not always feel like you have to ask about it, but just like hanging out like normal, like regular conversation and just leaving space for that topic to come up naturally. Or like, if you feel like I want to ask my friend about this, and I really want to know, like just doing it in a really tender and safe way.

And I think another thing was just having friends that would remember to celebrate me in small things. Like if I had something successful go on with my business, or if I accomplished a goal, or even just something like a birthday, just finding small ways to celebrate me when I couldn't be celebrating this big thing that I really wanted and it felt like other people were getting to like make announcements and have baby showers and stuff. So I think those are some of the most helpful things for me.

Nancy: What were some of the hardest things that you experienced during that season?

Sam: Oh, I think the hardest thing was feeling angry at God. And I knew that that wasn't good. I knew in my head, like, I'm not supposed to feel this way. I'm not supposed to feel angry at God, but I really was. Especially when it was like other people are having their second babies or their third babies and just feeling like, what the heck, God, like, not even a matter of like why them, but a matter of why not me? Am I not your daughter? Do you not want to give me good things? Or why won't you tell me what is keeping me from this good thing and this breakthrough that I want?

But I think I learned this aspect of God and of Jesus that I hadn't really experienced quite like that before. And it's just God, as somebody who is a friend and is not afraid of your emotions. He is not afraid of you being mad at Him. It is not like he is not so small on His throne that that's going to shake Him or shake His love for you. And I think like our relationship with God is one where we can always come to Him, even if we're angry with Him. And I would just encourage you that if you're in that place where you feel anger or resentment towards Him, or you feel abandoned by Him, come to Him with that and start there. And, but that was really hard for me to deal with. And I think if you've grown up in the church, especially as a female, it can feel like I'm not supposed to feel certain feelings, certain emotions are bad. Anger is bad. Bitterness is bad. And it can cause you to kind of shove those things down. But yeah, that process wasn't fun because you can only shove him down for so long.

But when those emotions started coming out in these safe ways with spiritual guidance and a loving husband and having helpful conversations with friends and things like that, a lot of healing started taking place. And my relationship with God got stronger and it felt like it got more real. And I think another really difficult thing was just feeling in general like I was this kind of gray cloud wherever I went. And like, people just knew like, “Oh, they're going through a hard time.” And like for special events, birthdays, hangout times feeling like there is an elephant in the room. And like the elephant had to do with me was very hard and you know, and we, as a family were like a pretty high achieving family and it just kind of felt like I wasn't able to achieve this thing, and that I was a disappointment. And like, I was a disappointment to myself and my family members have to feel like they're walking on eggshells because like, there's something not quite right with what's going on in our, between John and I and not having kids yet. But thankfully having family members that stuck it out with us that had big faith with us and for us, and like just went on the journey with us. Nobody was like standing around, like I have this figured out. So you guys just, you know, everything's going to be okay in the end.

No, it was like this communal process of this hurts, like it hurt John and I to go through it, but I feel like our family was grieving with us. And so when our breakthrough came, it felt like a communal breakthrough, a communal celebration, a communal remembrance that like, God really is so faithful and so good. But yeah, I think just dealing with some of the panic and anxiety, that was a very difficult part of that season as well.

Nancy: It’s so interesting, too, like being where we are now and then to just have this conversation and go back to that place. And you know, as I'm listening to you, it's like you were on this path that it was so hard and so dark and just, like you said, like a roller coaster, it was not a straight line. It's crazy. And at the same time I was entering into a completely different path.

I mean, I think I told you, correct me if I'm wrong, you might have to help me remember this. Did we tell you we were pregnant with Milly when you were in Africa?

Sam: Yes, we FaceTimed.

Nancy: Yes. While You were on like a bus and it was like crazy reception and that was when you and John started trying. And then we had Milly just before you guys went to Israel, right? Or after you came back.

Sam: Right before we left.

Nancy: Right. It was right before you left. So just to put those timelines into perspective, it was like I started entering into the season that was the thing that you were longing for and so hard for you to like watch, I imagine and then, you know, had Milly and then I went on and had Lyndon two years after that. And then, you know, when Lyndon was just eight months old, not even trying, we get pregnant with Beaufort and it's like, I am learning to navigate—which I know you have an appreciation for now—just motherhood, new motherhood, newborn land, nursing, you know, which is a challenge in and of itself, but obviously completely different than what you were walking through. So it's just so interesting, I think, looking back, cause I do feel like during that season, we, we did our best to like love each other well, and I think, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, I just think like we just naturally kind of needed to drift apart for just a time to just do whatever God was working out in our lives.

And that, I think that was so hard for me, because I was like grasping at like what always was, which was Sam and Nancy were close, and we got each other and we understood each other and like every single way. And it was like all of a sudden we didn't have the same language to speak to each other with. And like, I wanted to know how you were doing. I never knew whether or not to ask. And you want to know how I was doing, but a lot of times me talking about baby stuff is like painful for you. So it's like, looking back, it’s just like, man, those five years were just like tough, you know? And I think part of why it was like the roads, I just making this, like, no one can see what I'm doing with my hands, but I'm making this like path with my hands right now. It's like where we were side by side, and then we just kind of had a, your part for a little while and then the Lord brought us back together. And I just kind of want to say that that's okay.

We still fought for each other and loved each other in that time. But also that distance was okay. You know? I don't know, that’s just me processing this as you're talking, because I feel like ultimately we both wanted to know how to love each other in our own respective seasons, but it just felt really hard and we, it felt impossible sometimes.

So yeah, I would love for you, if you have any words of wisdom of like how I could have loved you better looking back or any thoughts on that maybe that separation was like good for a little bit, or I don't know. Are you feeling, are you feeling what I'm feeling like does that?

Sam: Yes. I wish you could see me cause I'm just nodding my head, like yes. Yes. Cause I really do feel like you hit the nail on the head and this is like, this is the real, this is real life. This is relationships. This is like the natural friction that happens in friendships when your lives just start going in different directions and you're in different seasons and you and I, we have both the benefit and the challenge of kind of moving from this realm of friendship into we're now family.

So we have this built in relationship that's like, I know I'm going to see you regularly. I know that we are going to come and watch your kids. We're going to celebrate birthday parties. We're going to hang out with each other on holidays because we've got that built in to our family rhythm, but it did feel like this kind of temporary loss of friendship because you were in this season of motherhood that is, now that I'm in it, I’m like, yeah, it is not easy.

Like it's so beautiful. It is the good stuff of life and it doesn't stick around forever. We're going to look back and think, wow, those years were hard, but they're so good. You were in that. And I was in this other, what felt like lightyears apart going through grief and waiting and figuring that out, and also I think there was just like, it had been growing like that. Like, because we married into the same family. Also our, our work-life stages were different.

You were in a season of like being very booked with your photography business and having team members, and I'm just starting my business, and so it did feel like there was this sadness that I was like, “Oh, for so long, it's just Sam and Nancy.” So easy. Like, and you can attest to this, like most of our lives growing up, walking around here and there people would say, “Oh my gosh, are you guys sisters?” Or like, “Oh, you guys are so much alike and having like the same sense of humor. “And like, even now, if both of us walked into target, like at different times on the same day, we'd walk out with like 50% of the same items. You know? We're just like so very similar.

So that season was so hard to feel like we are not connecting. We're feeling awkward around each other. I could tell you were trying to like filter what you were saying, and then I'm feeling like, you know, in some ways Nancy, can't be there for me right now. In this season that I feel like I need her the most, I need her the most now. But it was good. Like looking back now, I see that it is healthy, and it's also just like the very real normal lifespan of friendships that span not over a couple of years, but over decades. And we are honestly some of the lucky ones that get to fight for friendship over decades, and it's not always easy. It's not always easy, but you know, it's worth it. Like it is worth it to fight for your friendships. It's worth it to have difficult conversations. Sometimes you're going to have seasons that it feels like a barren field, but you just have to be faithful to still try and show up for each other how you can. And I think looking back if I had any word of wisdom, if like it would just be like that you could have been more present, like more there, but not to say that in a way that's like, so now you need to feel guilty.

No, it's like, I have this perspective of your life that like between business and children, there just wasn't a lot of like Nancy left over.

Nancy: Right.

Sam: But yeah, it's just like, it's tough when those things that feel have felt so easy over the years suddenly become hard and you're like, “Oh, what do I do?”

Nancy: Yeah. I think that's so good, and it's so good to hear. I think just to be just like what you said to make space, to make, to just spend more time together. Because during those years we didn't spend a ton of time together outside of family events. And I was definitely so busy with my team and my work and Milly and Lyndon and Beaufort, you know, it just was, I felt like at capacity or over capacity all the time and it wasn't just you. I had no friends, like I laugh because it's sad and true.

I look back it's one of my biggest regrets is not making more time and space just to be a friend and to be with friends. Most of my friends during that time were my team members, my teammates, you know, in the work I was doing, and it's just so good to hear that and to learn that, because I think in this season of my life, I'm realizing friendship and just time spent without achieving anything or doing anything, just time spent with friends is gold. You know, it's like the stuff of life, like you said. And of course looking back, I wish I was there. I also remember thinking like, I'm the last person Sam wants to hang out with right now! Like she doesn't want me, like, I've got a baby. The literally the only thing I can talk about right now is like nursing or babies or diapers, and was like the last thing you probably want to hear, you know?

So those thoughts are going in my mind and just making me pull back over and over again. So my hope is that someone listening would realize that it's not about necessarily like what we think, it's about what the other person needs, you know.

Sam: For sure.

Nancy: Because I definitely thought logically in my head, Sam is having a hard time with my life right now, like in general, like the fact that I can get pregnant, the fact that I have babies, like I don't, I felt like being a friend to you meant staying away and giving you space because I had a kid and you wanted a kid and that everything about my presence and Milly or Lyndon being there, you know, and Beaufort, like every, it would just be harder for us, you know? So it's just interesting and really good, I think to say those things out loud and like, hopefully they'll be helpful.

Sam: Yes. And to like have the benefit of like a hindsight perspective for people who might be in that right now and might be in that friendship right now, that's like, how do I engage with this person? And like, yeah. The only thing you can do is really show up as yourself, like and to be willing to navigate those conversations, cause like looking back, there were elements of your life that were difficult and even like probably some like jealousy and asking God, like, why is it so easy for them and it's so hard for us?

But then like from somebody on my side, and I don't know if this would be like a blanket statement that I could lay on every woman who's going through infertility, how they might feel about friends that have babies. But I always like appreciated when my friends would invite me to, do you want to come over, and you can hang out with me and the kids.

Because it just felt like I was invited into this life. That was like a glimpse of what I could be enjoying. And also like, I think I did have enough wherewithal to understand like that season of life is not always pretty or clean or fun or controlled. So it did kind of give me this permission of like, as long as I'm in this season, I'm going to try to enjoy the things that I know are going to be harder once we do have our kids.

So yeah, like hindsight is totally 2020. So hopefully those, those vulnerable nuggets of us looking back are helpful for someone out there listening today.

Nancy: Yeah. And we did have a few conversations that were like bigger conversations, heart to heart, lots of tears, me and you. You know, it wasn't just that we were avoiding each other for five years either. Yeah, we definitely like interacted. I mean, you were faithfully there at like every birthday party at every birth at everything that even in the back of my head, I'm like, this is probably so hard for Sam and she's showing up and loving me and that meant so much to me. And you’ve loved our kids so well when she would watch our kids, you know, like so many times and so there was a lot of, again, like you said, it's not a straight path, but I think even just going back to listening to the Holy Spirit, like if you feel like there's a burden on your heart to reach out to your friend or ask them, or just say like, “Hey, this is how I'm feeling right now. I'm sorry to bring this up. I'm sorry if this is about to be really messy, but like, I feel like I can't bring my kid over to hang out with you because I don't know how you'll receive that. Like, can we talk about that?” You know?

Sam: For sure, talk about it.

Nancy: I think those conversations with just you and I, that we had that were painful and like lots of tears where some of the sweetest and most important in the history of our friendship, you know? Okay, so I want to fast-forward to now, and I just want you to share like the rest of the story and where we are today and just speak hope and encouragement to anybody who is listening.

Sam: Yeah. So, like I said, 2019, we just received our breakthrough. We received the thing that we had waited for and that so many people had prayed and fought for with us, and we got pregnant and it totally felt like a miracle, like a hundred percent after five years of month after month coming up with like one line on the test to have two lines show up, just felt like, oh my gosh, it felt like such this fragile thing.

And I will say that after experiencing, waiting, and after experiencing loss and miscarriage, when I got pregnant, it was like this weird duality of extreme joy and fear. And I just have to share this testimony of like those first several weeks. And you know, you have to wait a while before you go to the doctor and they confirm a pregnancy. I think it's like seven, eight, nine weeks pregnant. So, you know, once you find out you're pregnant, you, you have to wait three or four weeks. And if you've experienced miscarriage, you know that that can feel like a very long time.

And I just remember waking up every day and wondering, am I going to start bleeding today? What if we lose it this pregnancy? How am I going to handle that? And you know, we even like chose not to tell anyone except you and Will, we told you and Will when I was like five weeks pregnant because we felt like we needed somebody in our corner in those first few weeks, knowing it gave me comfort to know that somebody knew, and they were praying with us that this baby would come to be. That it would be a full term, healthy pregnancy, healthy baby. And speaking those things from the beginning, but it was a rough little emotional ride. Those first few weeks I was just so scared, and John and I went away with some friends to the beach and it's a very special, dear place to our family. It's a family home, and we were in one of the rooms. I was sleeping and I had this dream and I dreamt, I only dreamt one other time where I felt like I saw Jesus. So it just was unbelievably special to me that I saw Jesus. I knew it was him in my dream. And he was kneeling beside the bed where I was sleeping and he was knelt down and he had my hand in his hands, like sandwiched in between his hands and he was just stroking my hand, and with the most loving smile on his face, He just kept saying, you don't have to be afraid. You don't have to be afraid. And this might sound so crazy, but I it's just real, this is what happened. I woke up and I, as I was waking up, I saw a full name, Griffin Wilkes Ray, and I wrote it down in my journal right away when I woke up.

And when John woke up, he said, “Wow, do you feel like the Holy spirit is here in this room? And I was like, “John, I saw Jesus. He told me I didn't have to be afraid.” And that, and that was an anchor that I could lean back on at every point during my pregnancy, to say, Jesus himself told me that I don't have to be afraid.

So devil, you can shut up when you're coming at me with that fear and telling me that this is going to fail or where I'm going to lose again, or there's going to be lack in my life, lack of good things. No, that is such, the devil wants to make you believe that, but Jesus says don't be afraid.

So whatever part of that testimony you feel like you want to experience for yourself, if you're going through something like this, just take it, take it and start proclaiming life over your process and breakthrough over your process. And, yeah, so I have this beautiful little girl who literally keeps me in stitches all the time. She's so funny.

Nancy: She’s a legit funny baby.

Sam: She is a funny baby and I love it so much. God just knows that I love laughing so much and I love quirkiness. It's just like such a delight to be her mom. And even when things get very like hard and like, lack of sleep, those first, you know, months of postpartum, all of that was kind of rocked my world a little bit. I just had this thing of like, she is the thing we've been waiting for and she's kicking off this next season of our life.

And so fast-forward again, like I'm I have this baby she's seven, seven and a half months old. And I find out that I'm pregnant again, we legit like conceived naturally with another child. And I just didn't know, I didn't know if we could have more children. I didn't know what that was going to look like. You know, after going through a process like that, you just really, one of the things I really, really learned is that you can ha you can think you have so much control over your life—and like also, I think 2020 helped us realize that too—you can think you have control over a lot of your life, but you don't. And like, that's a really beautiful thing when you live life with God.

So, he gave us this another, another amazing gift with another little life that's growing in me, and I'm so thankful. It's a little boy and fun fact, I'm due like 10 days after Nancy.

Nancy: So great. I really like, first of all, there's so many things just like sitting over here crying, I'm fine. It's fine, but when you said like, you know, this really might sound crazy to some people. It might sound crazy to some people that Jesus showed up to you in a dream. But if you know Jesus, it’s not crazy! Like He's so tender and like so personal. And so man, I hope that somebody listening, if they don't know Jesus, that they would just come to know him as that, because that picture that you had of him, that he gave you in your dream is him. Like He cares for us so deeply and personally, and like, even in all of the heartache, like he never left your side, you know, he was always there holding your hands. And it was just so beautiful because he always takes the hardest things and the ugliest things in life and turns them into the most beautiful things.

And in our friendship, I think the hardest season was when I got pregnant with Beaufort, because it was a surprise. And like, how do you explain to your best friend that's been trying for four years, I just got a surprise pregnancy? Like it was so hard, when I'm like equally excited and equally like terrified to tell you and fast forward.

And now I'm pregnant with my fourth baby and you're pregnant with your second, and we get to do it together. Like walking through this pregnancy with you is so fun. And it's just something that neither one of us ever expected to be able to do together. Like it just isn’t, and I just am so thankful and just like, I'm blown away, you know? And I know that's not everybody's story, and I want to be like, so tender to that, like this isn't everybody's story, but it's our story, you know? It is what God has done here. And it's definitely his hand in our friendship and his like miraculous hand in your life and I just really want it like that to be made known that like, God still cares for us. And He still shows up and He still speaks to us very specifically and Ge still performs miracles when everyone else in the whole world, and even your own self isn't believing that it can happen anymore. He still does. He's, you know, He's so much bigger. He can handle all the emotions that we have to bring to Him.

And it's just so sweet to be here now. And it is sweeter right now because of everything that we have learned and walked through together, you know, the last several years.

Sam: Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. It's just so cool. Like I just like crying and laughing at the same time because it's just so sweet.

Sam: Yeah, yeah. And like, I know that maybe like for some people it can sound like, “Oh, it was just a, such a hard journey, but like da at the end, it's tied in a bow of like, and now we're pregnant together.” And like, I just want to really like validate that roads that are like really difficult, really lonely, really hidden and narrow. Like it is unbelievably hard, and like we have said throughout, it's not like a straight shot. It's not this A plus B equals C. It is life. It is not always pretty. It's not, does not always get tied up with a bow at the end. And there's a lot about our story that is not necessarily like as final with the bow at the end, Nancy and I still live very like real lives where we deal with difficult things on different levels on different days, but I think the important thing is that, like we, we've gone through this thing as friends together, choosing each other and choosing to trust who God is in the process. And now we are getting to live out this life alongside each other, inviting each other and helping each other through the, not so like Instagram-worthy moments of our lives. But also like there's this unbelievable gift of faithfulness that the Lord has given us that we can enjoy with each other and like this absolutely miraculous gift of two new little lives that we get to carry together and they get to be a part of each other's lives and we get to help steward those lives and those relationships as cousins, it’s really just—I feel the weightiness of it and I feel so thankful and yeah, a spirit of thankfulness just like really takes what the enemy intended for hurting us and for devastation, and it turns it into like a tree of life with God.

So yeah, like, and you may not have a relationship with God or a relationship with Jesus, but I just want to say to you that there is hope like if you are in a dark season of waiting, there is absolutely hope and don't be afraid to just ask and, and He will show up. He'll be there.

Nancy: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. It's both/and. It's both the victory and the beauty and the miracle of celebrating where we are now AND the fact that we continue to live life together. That's very real, and we do still have to navigate things as friends and sisters-in-law and all the things in between, which is it's the good stuff. Yeah, it’s because it's both and that makes it really good. It's not one or the other.

So thank you. Sam, I love you. I'm so thankful for your bravery and sharing all of this and your honesty. And I know that God is going to just shine His light into some really dark hard places in hearts of women who might hear this, and so truly thank you so much for coming on. I feel like there's no other better way to end it than “there is hope,” you know, there is hope for anybody listening and I'm so thankful for you. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about your writing or learn more about you?

Sam: Yeah. So I think the best place would be my blog. So I was very inspired by your podcast with Reagan and I'm taking a year off of social media, but I still love to share and I love to write. So I have a blog. It is SamanthaRayWriting.com and I'm pretty active there, so if you want to connect, you can always comment or send me a message and that'll come straight to me.

Nancy: I love that. Well, thank you so much. I love you, Sam.

Sam: Love you! Thanks for having me.

And don't forget, nancyray.com/emails is where you can sign up for my emails, which is where I share anything I’m creating or doing all my behind the scenes content and any helpful tips I have for you, I always share it there first.