069 - 12 Years of Marriage, Part 2
Resources from this episode:
Episode 047 - Book | Seasons of God with Dr. Richard Blackaby
Crucial Conversations, by Patterson, Grenny, McMillan & Switzler
Parenting: 14 Gospel Principles That Can Radically Change Your Family by Paul David Tripp
Affiliate links have been used in this post! I do receive a commission when you choose to purchase through these links, and that helps me keep this podcast up and running—I truly appreciate when you choose to use them!
Show Notes:
We are back again in Part 2 of the marriage question-and-answer with my favorite human ever, Will Ray, my husband. And so, if you missed Part 1, be sure to go back to last week's Episode 068 and re-listen to that, as this is just a continuation of Will and I talking about our marriage.
And we cover a huge range of topics. We talk about how we fight, parenting, intimacy, communication, faith, money, date nights, everything. I'm really excited to wrap up Part 2 of our conversation together.
For the full episode, hit play above or read through it below!
Nancy Ray: All right, let's talk about kids. Are we always on the same page with child rearing?
Will Ray: Covered this earlier—no.
Nancy: How do we navigate that? What do we do?
Will: I think generally speaking, big picture, we're on the same page. It's in the day-to-day application that we maybe have different instincts at different times. There are some times where you do something and I'm just like, "Wait, no, what? No, wait." And other times I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, I love you right now. How you just worked them into submission." So yes, we're on the same page. Day-to-day application is difficult.
Nancy: Yeah. A couple of things that we've talked about, I think big picture parenting lately is... So, we went through this online course led by our friend, Amy McCready, Positive Parenting Solutions.
Will: Awesome. Super helpful.
Nancy: It's so helpful. And it's really practical…
Will: Yeah, that day-to-day.
Nancy: ... and it's very geared towards day-to-day discipline, psychology, child psychology, behavior getting the results you want for your kids, which is like, "Hello. Don't we all want that?" It is so awesome. I actually talk about this in Episode 031, My Number One Parenting Tip. I learned it from that course. Anyway, it's hands down worth the money. So good. I'll leave a link to it in the show notes for sure.
But that is very practical application. But then we went to this parenting conference by Paul David Tripp. It was so good, and he really hit on the big picture of it all.
Will: Yeah, it wasn't exactly what we were expecting. We were thinking, "Hey, he's going to give us more practical things." And there was some practical to it, but the conference was more your mindset and approach to parenting in light of the gospel.
And I'm reading his book, I think it's just called Parenting. And it's got 14 gospel principles that will change the way your parent or something like that. She'll leave a link in the show notes.
Nancy: Yes, sure.
Will: But it is game changing for how you think about parenting, that you are more like your children than unlike them. And you're more like them in that you are in need of grace. And so we as parents, are sent from a God of grace as ambassadors of grace to give grace to children who need grace every day, just like we need grace. And that is what produces heart change in our children. It's not the rules that bring heart change. It's the grace that we are to show them. And he talks a lot about the application of that.
Nancy: Yeah. We've come, I think, to understand we need to be on the same page as behavior, but we really need to be on the same page with the vision that we have to pour into these little lives and these little souls. And that is incredibly powerful when we can get on the same page. So, I think just putting ourselves underneath the teaching of people who have done this before, who are way better at this and who've learned and can teach these things is huge.
I just interviewed Sally Clarkson. And as a mother, she is such a good voice to have in my own life, reading her books, listening to her podcast and just learning from her. I think just really getting under the teaching and wisdom of other people who've done this before us is really huge so that we can get on the same page.
These two questions kind of go hand-in-hand, but someone asked, "When do you know you're ready to start trying for kids? And how do you know when you're done having babies?"
Will: Oh, man. I knew it would be okay when we thought we were pregnant several years before we actually got pregnant with Milly. I knew we would be okay when that happened. And I thought... I had to come to grips with the fact that we were there, but-
Nancy: I don't know that I could say the same thing. I was freaking out.
Will: But I don't know. We prayed a lot about it and life comes in seasons. We had a season of where it was just the two of us in our marriage. Your podcast with Richard Blackaby was so helpful about seasons. And we've got a season now where we've been having kids, and that season of having kids will end at some point. We don't really know how to tell when we're done having babies. We're not sure yet.
Nancy: Yeah. We're not sure yet. I think too for... you're not necessarily always going to be 100% on the same page as each other, and you were ready to start having kids long before I was. And it took patience from you with me and the Lord, letting him work on my heart for several years before I kind of came to that place of surrender.
I think we went to a marriage weekend one time where it said if we both surrender ourselves to the Holy Spirit enough, he will put us on the same page. You have to believe that. And if you are both constantly on your knees asking, "God, what do you want? What do you want? What do you want?" He will bring you both to the same answer.
Will: Yeah. Because if we're both-
Nancy: Eventually.
Will: If we're both really communing with the Holy Spirit, He's not going to tell me one thing and you something else. There's something that we're missing. One of us is missing or maybe both of us is missing. And so, yeah. Be in prayer for sure.
Nancy: Yeah. We're in prayer now about what's to come with the rest of our babies. We don't know that we're done. We don't know what's to come, but I think just continually just praying about that and asking the Lord to make that season clear. And I think that he will. Yeah. Tips on keeping marriage strong once baby arrives. So, for the new parent.
Will: It's a challenge.
Nancy: Throw out all expectations again.
Will: Yeah. Date night, communication.
Nancy: Yeah. And not date night too soon. Give yourself grace.
Will: Sure.
Nancy: I was not ready for a date night for a long time. I was like, "What just happened?" Just giving grace to each other. But when you get to that point, finding and fighting for that time where just the two of you can dream together and spend time together is huge. For sure.
All right. How do you practically lead your kids in relationship with Jesus? I'll jump in here and just say I did do a whole podcast episode about this. So, it's Episode 059 about how to really pour faith into your kids. And I would just encourage you to go back and listen to that whole thing, if that's interesting to you, but anything that you want to add.
Will: Yeah. I would say trying to insert it into daily conversation, trying to talk about how... You would say how God is healing your boo-boos, right? God made this world amazing, God created that tree or that bird. How do you insert recognition of God in something outside of the child that is bringing about these amazing things that the child gets to witness. We try to do that, pray regularly, encourage them to pray, and talk about the gospel that when we mess up, when you or I mess up, we try to apologize and say we're sorry, and we need forgiveness. And we're glad that God forgave us. So, we try to insert gospel type conversations wherever we can.
Nancy: Yeah. I feel like I could talk about this a long time, but I just want to add this one story because it happened today. It was so sweet. I was having Milly help me water the plants in our house. And we have this little moisture meter that we stick in the plants and it was stuck on the dry. It was dry. It was not getting wet and she kept watering this plant, watering it. And she goes, "Can we just please ask God? He can help this plant get to the number five." Because when it goes up to number five, it's moist. And it's just so sweet because I'm thinking, "This is the weirdest prayer." But I just saw it as an opportunity. I was like, "We can stop and pray for that. Sure."
I prayed and then we poured in some more water and she goes, "Oh, it only got to number four. We need to pray again." And I said, "Do you want to pray this time?" And she said, "Yes, I'll pray." And she got on her knees and folded her hands. And she said, "God, I thank you so much for this plant, and I just ask that you would get this to number five so that it can get what it needs. And I also ask that you would give us wisdom as we care for this plant. Amen."
I mean, just precious, right? Literally, it was a mirror of what I had just prayed because I asked God for wisdom in helping us care for the plant and that he would help us to know. And I was able to talk it out with her because literally the funniest thing is this plant was floating in water, okay? There was so much. She went back and watered it seven times. And it was buoyant, floating in this tub of water.
And the moisture meter is broken. And I said, "Milly, it's not even saying it's moist. And it's literally floating in water." I said, "But God is answering our prayer with wisdom because he is showing mommy that this thing's broken and we need a new one." And I was able to talk to her about it. And it was the silliest story, but even just seeing her little heart being prompted to pray about things, not ever looking at that as dumb and not ever looking at that as, "Try it," or that, "I don't have time for that."
But giving her the opportunity to pray for herself and giving her the opportunity to see God work in her life, even in watering plants, and the littlest ways. It just was really sweet today to watch that happen.
Will: And I think that's why the perspective idea, Paul Tripp and others, about the big picture of what our goals here. We want to take ground in the hearts of our children, little bit by little bit for the gospel, every day. You have those conversations, you say those prayers, you draw their attention to the things of the Lord or the beauty of his creation. And you have those really intense conversations, you do the correction and you take a little ground and you take a little ground and you wake up and do it again tomorrow.
Because you're going to have an opportunity this week, just like that, where somebody is doing something and we have an opportunity to insert prayer or scripture or confession or something that will point them towards a recognition of the Lord. And so, a little bit by little bit.
Nancy: Totally. All right. Submission has a negative connotation. Help me to see this in a better light.
Will: The only way I know how to take this is as it relates to biblical submission like in Ephesians 5. I guess the scripture there that is referencing is Ephesians 5... well, it starts in 21 through the end of the chapter. Verse 21 says, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord." It goes on.
And then later, husbands are instructed, "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." And then at the end of the chapter, "However, each one of you must love his wife as he loves himself. And the wife must respect her husband."
For me, I read this from my perspective, of course, and you're pretty strong. You're very strong.
Nancy: Thank you.
Will: Personally, professionally, very strong woman. You don't need anybody to tell you what to do. I guess there are still churches that say this is, "Hey, you need to submit. And the man should make the decisions." That's not really part of how we do things.
If my model is Christ, then I should be dying every day to myself for your benefit, "Love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself." I should be giving myself up for you every day. In the same way, "Husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife, loves himself." I should be doing what Christ did for you.
What did he do? He came, he left heaven, left the privileges and everything that was available to him there, came to Earth, made himself nothing in the form of a slave and then invited people to follow him. Taught them, shared with them, gave his life for them, died for them. And what we see in Christ is not like, "Hey, submit to me. Do this, do that." It's really a, "Hey, I give myself up for you in an invitation to come along and to be a part of that."
And so for us as a church, we want to follow Christ because of how he gave himself up. We want to give our lives and submit to him because he gave everything for us. I think if I, as a husband, give myself up for you, then it'll be easier for you to... And then invite you to come along as Jesus did and has invited us, "Hey, come with me and I'll make you fishers of men, follow me." Then it'll be easier, this submission piece.
It makes sense because I'm dying, so you would want to come along. I'm giving all I have to serve you and love you. I'm not actually doing that by the way, I'm trying to get better. But if that is what I'm eagerly seeking to do, then submission isn't really like a thing because I'm dying. I'm giving myself up, I'm submitting, I'm loving, I'm serving. And so, naturally our response as believers is to love and to serve and to give and to sacrifice.
And men, our death to ourselves—loving our wives, serving our wives—creates, promotes this love and respect and the submission to whatever extent that happens as a result of what we've done. That's my take, at least.
Nancy: Yeah. Preach. That'll preach. That was good.
Will: For the three men listening.
Nancy: Yeah. But seriously, for the women listening, which is most of you, there is this kind of old school, "Why submit to your husband?" I think that's just in the back of your mind, and there is this negative connotation with that.
But when you look at the whole picture, Will's absolutely right, that this lived out in marriage submitting to one another, loving and respecting each other is beautiful. And you want to join in on that. You want to come alongside each other and build each other up and lay down your life for the other person. I hope that helps with that negative connotation.
I also think the weird translation in the Bible in Genesis, when it talks about God makes a helpmate for a man. I think it's helpmate, right? Helpmate. It's so weird. They wrote that because there's not a word for it in English. There's not a word for... I don't even know how to say it, but it's Ezer, I think, or is Ezer. E-Z-E-R in Hebrew or Aramaic or whatever. I don't want to sound like I know everything.
Will: Hebrew, I think.
Nancy: Hebrew, okay. And that word means a helper, but it's so much more than a helper. It's a perfect puzzle piece is kind of what it means. And there's this weird negative connotation to that just because we don't have the right word for it. Like, "Oh, we have to submit and we're like a helper." It feels like less than who we are.
But if you look at that word in Scripture... I just learned this a few weeks ago, which is so cool. But it gave me such a boost and like, "Yes, that is who I am." The word Ezer does mean helper, but it doesn't only mean that. Most of the times that Ezer is used in the Old Testament is actually in reference to God when he comes to the aid of an army. And he is not just a helper, he's a helper in the biggest sense. He is an uplifter, a protector, a defender, a warrior.
That is what, really if you look at all of the uses of Ezer in the Old Testament it's mainly describing God, and that is our role as women in marriage is to not just submit or help, but to rise up and to help and bolster and protect and defend and be a warrior as well. I hope that that encourages you in maybe some of that negative connotation. All right. Do you pray together every day? What does it look like? And we both laugh. No.
Will: No, we do not. It's something we're working on. It's something we've had recent conversations about. Typically what happens is we don't pray together all that often. And then when we do, and it's late at night and Nancy is a very-
Nancy: Long-winded prayer?
Will: How do I put this?
Nancy: I will own up to my long prayers. I pray a long time and I put him to sleep.
Will: She's amazing. Her prayers, they were actually very attractive to me when we were young and I was...
Nancy: Not anymore, though?
Will: They are attractive and I love that you pray so fervently. I can't hang if we're like laying in the bed and I get very, very sleepy.
Nancy: Yeah. I don't know that there's ever been a time you've made it to the end of one of my prayers.
Will: No, sure-
Nancy: No, no. I'm just kidding. I've learned to keep them short. Actually, we talked about this. Amy Groeschel, Craig Groeschel's wife, did a quick Instagram post recently, and it really encouraged us because she said this is their philosophy. They pray every day, they keep it short. They keep it consistent. And if you miss a day, don't miss two.
Will: It's good.
Nancy: I love that. I think it gives us permission just to do... It sounds terrible, but just to do the bare minimum because I think we're trying to make it a grandiose experience.
Will: Okay, we got to pray about work and we got to pray about family and we've got to pray for our kids and we've got to pray for health. And we got to pray about this life calling that we're thinking about, and we're thinking about this, this, this. If you don't pray every now and then, you have to pack it all in. It makes it so long. And so we're really trying to do it more often. Not quite as long, but make it more consistent.
Nancy: Yeah, exactly. How do we support each other in our faith individually and together?
Will: Make sure we're in fellowship with other believers in some regard. Church regularly. Small group, et cetera. Make space for one another to do work in that. Quiet times and encourage one another towards that. That's probably the biggest thing.
Nancy: I think it's just sharing in what we're learning from the Lord with each other. Every once in a while we'll just say, "What has God been teaching you?" And we probably need to ask that question more often, but I think just making it something that we're interested in each other and that we're kind of keeping each other accountable too, but also knowing we're interested in that and supportive in that is good. What rhythms do you have to encourage connection?
Will: Connection for us, between you and I?
Nancy: This is a marriage episode, after all.
Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. We try to touch base about our week and how we're doing on Sunday nights or Sunday... Yeah, late on Sunday. That's important. Yeah. The other piece is we just every day, try to check in about our days. Where did we experience? How are we doing? How was it? Good, bad, ugly, indifferent, all the above.
Nancy: Have you decided your roles and how have they changed through the years? Household tasks, how do we divide them up? Do we feel like it's fair? I feel like we evenly share the household burden. Especially when I was working and you were working. We both, I think, threw in and did a lot. I mean, I've always been the one to do meals, meal planning, meal prep. You definitely are in charge of the grill if we grill.
Will: Yeah. And I do house projects, fixing things, changing light bulbs, things like that. They're less often. Of course, some of those things, but the whole of them is not always...
Nancy: You're our IT guy, and tech issues.
Will: Tech issues. Yeah. I mean, we just play our strengths a little bit, right? I'm more inclined towards some things mechanical or technological. I take out the trash most of the time. I mop the floor.
Nancy: Yeah. You're the floor guy for sure, and I’m countertops and clutter.
Will: I think the thing is, we just have some kind of unspoken rules. We don't go to bed with a dirty kitchen or we always kind of set up for the next day or whatever. Every day we work on the kitchen together. I'm not ever watching TV or reading while you're working or vice versa, unless there's some work item that we need to get done or something that keeps us from working together on something.
Nancy: Yeah, and I take care of all the kids' stuff, all their schedules and all that. I think it is just playing to your strengths. And then also just changing with the seasons because I didn't have to deal with all the kids and all their schedules and managing all of their clothes and everything before you had kids. Now I'm also working a lot less. So, maybe we would have divided that up a little bit more evenly while I was still working more full time, but now I'm not. And so that stuff is kind of fun for me. And it is what I'm kind of better at.
Will: Yeah. There were different seasons for sure because right at that... When Millie was born, I was very helpful. I was really helping a lot there because your business was still going. I was helping some with your business, but helping at the house more. And I do that a little bit less now because the business is out of the picture.
You have to be open about communications, and if you're not getting something that you need from your spouse, then you've got to talk about it. One of the best tools for that is one of my favorite books is Crucial Conversations, because it's a sensitive topic, "Hey, I'm not getting what I need from you in terms of support. And so I need your help with this, that, or the other thing." And so how do you have that conversation in a way that's safe and doesn't turn the other person off and doesn't turn into a massive blow up? And there's those tools.
Nancy: Yeah. Crucial Conversations is currently happening in the Nancy Ray Book Club. And I will be doing an episode on that a little bit later this year, but it is hands down... It's kind of like a business book. I feel like a lot of businesses use it in a corporate setting. Hands down a great tool for our marriage. We're like, "All right, we need a crucial conversation with each other." It is so helpful. It's really helped us navigate some sensitive conversations we've had.
Let's talk briefly about money because I feel like we just talked about money a lot throughout episodes and our life and whatnot. But basically boiling it down to one question. How has Dave Ramsey influenced your marriage?
Will: The person or just doing Dave Ramsey's stuff? Because he hasn't really affected our marriage, him personally. But the content is huge. I mean, put us on the same page. It helped us avoid a lot of fights and a lot of heartache because we were on the same page. He gave us a shared language to talk about money, helped us with a framework to build shared goals and a track to run on. We're very much on the same page about it. We don't fight about money. We have fought about money before, but it's never been a issue.
Nancy: It's not a regular thing that we argue about. It's very rare. We've argued about, but is rare. I think, and specifically Financial Peace University, this is not endorsed or anything like that, but that is the classes that we took. We led that, we believe in it. That is the framework that has really put us on the same page.
And so, there's a lot of things we could talk about money, but most of it will be answered if you just go take that class, because that was most helpful for us. All right. Date nights, what are some fun conversation topics? What do we like to talk about when we got on a date?
Will: We like to talk about travel plans and dreams, places we'd like to go or things we want to do. Just kind of dream together a little bit.
Nancy: Yeah. I think speaking of money, we do like to talk about money.
Will: Yeah.
Nancy: I think it's something that because we have a shared language, we love to dream about what's going to be our next big purchase. What are we saving towards? What do we want to do with this? How do we want to invest this year? All that stuff is really... it's something that bonds us together.
Will: Yeah. I could see how money would be a topic that people might avoid talking about because there's been issues there or there's broken trust or things aren't going as well as people would have hoped, so, "Oh, let's just not talk about it." But yeah, we talk a lot about money and goals and what we want to do.
Nancy: Ministries we want to support, what we want to give to or what next home improvement project we want to do. You spent all day today hanging back porch lights for me and they're so beautiful. Things like that. So fun. And then every Christmas we have our date.
Will: Christmas date. Yeah.
Nancy: It's a Christmas date. Sometime in December, we go out on a date and we recount the year and we make a list individually. We just write down all the good things that happened that year. 2020 it's going to be a doozy. Our Christmas day this year. But it's really important, I think, to reflect together. And it's something I think we spend a lot of time looking forward and dreaming, but we don't do enough reflecting. It's one of my favorite dates we do every year. We get dressed up, we go to a fancy place. We celebrate God's goodness in that year. I think it's really important to do that.
Will: Absolutely.
Nancy: All right. How do we maintain a healthy marriage while managing work, kids, and life? This is our final question.
Will: I mean, that's something we're still figuring out.
Nancy: This question's a doozy. I'd love the answer to this question.
Will: Yeah. If anyone has it, please write down. You got to spend time to work on yourself. That's the only thing you can control is the work that you do on yourself. And so if that's... Like we talked about earlier. In different areas of your life, if there's an issue or if there has been an issue, if it's your health or your... Really, I mean, the most important thing you can do is cultivate your relationship with Christ and allow him to work on you so that you can become more like him in your marriage.
Nancy: Yeah.
Will: Spend time together, with the kids, without the kids and that sort of thing. Make sure you're intentional. Go about your life in an intentional way. And we don't do all this perfectly. I'm just trying to be real.
Nancy: Yeah. No, I completely agree. I think just continuing to reflect and be thankful together while also looking ahead and setting goals together like we said, it's really good to do. And just fighting for that clear, honest communication and where you can have a clear mind and say, "There really is nothing between us."
I guess I just want to close with the thought that maybe somebody listening is having a hard time in their marriage or maybe you're listening, you're like, "Oh, I wish my husband could be more like Will or I wish that I could be whatever." I hope that you know that in all of this, we are very imperfect. We are not doing this perfectly. We are learning as we go. We're sharing what we know at this point, but I'm sure even next year, certainly 10 years from now, we will know so much more.
I think wherever you are, my encouragement would be just to stay humble and to submit yourself to the Lord and know that he's so gracious to us. He's so gracious to us in our marriages. He's so gracious to us and kind to us individually. And my encouragement would just be: keep your eyes on him because he will lead you. He's so faithful to lead you and care for you wherever you are.
And maybe there's just one thing that you heard in the last conversation that we've had that's helpful. Just take that one thing. Don't be overwhelmed by everything that we've said, but our prayer and our hope is that you've been encouraged. Maybe just to try something new or to have a conversation with your spouse or to plan a date night or do something. Whatever it is that you need in your marriage today and that you know where we're all imperfect. We're doing the best we can and we're in this together. Any thoughts?
Will: No, that's great. It's a process. You've got to continue to work hard, continue to get after it, and like anything to make it great, it takes some work. And it doesn't just get good on its own. It doesn't get better on its own. And so you have to invest time, resources, effort, energy. I looked at you the other day and said, "Man, we've got a pretty great life together."
Nancy: Yeah, really thankful.
Will: Same.
Nancy: Well, thank you, Will Ray, for being on the Nancy Ray Podcast.
Will: Thank you.
Nancy: I'm very grateful that you were here sharing your Willsdom as our friends say. But seriously, I'm really grateful. I think all of our listeners are going to be so happy that you were on and that you shared your heart and you showed up and yeah. Thank you.
Will: Thank you. Love you.
Nancy: Love you, too. Happy anniversary.
The Work & Play Cornerstore
It's time for the Work and Play Cornerstore. This week, Will and I are bringing you a book we've been loving and I thing we've been loving. I'll get a small commission from anything bought through these links, which will help me to continue to bring this podcast to you every week.
And it's just fun to think about these things with Will. He helped me come up with them. So, the book we're going to leave you with is Parenting: 14 Gospel Principles That Can Radically Change Your Family by Paul David Tripp. And I have not read this book yet. Will is in the middle of it, but I plan to read it when he is done. And Paul David Tripp is just an excellent resource for a lot of things. He's written a plethora of books. We really enjoyed his parenting conference like we talked about in this episode.
The thing that we're loving, that we've actually been loving for several years now is our UE Boom speaker. This is a portable Bluetooth speaker that has the most amazing sound quality. I don't think it's waterproof, but it's weather and sand resistant, so you can take it with you in the beach or to the pool. And we always take it with us when we go to the lake. It literally always makes its way into our bag on any vacation. We were even listening to it today outside in our backyard. It's the funnest way just to blast some good music and totally change the mood. You could have a family dance party. It's just the easiest way to bring music wherever you are. And the sound is really good.
I'm going to close with words from Paul David Tripp. He says,
"We forget that God's primary goal is not changing our situation, our relationships, so that we can be happy, but changing us through our situation and relationships so that we will be happy."
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